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An Interview With Ian Thorpe 1. Intro: Jenny's Bio 2. The interview 3. Audio and Text Links

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Intro: Jenny Greenteeth'S BIO

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Jenny Greenteeth, Englands most famous boggart or water spirit (Wikipedia biography) became tired of people thinking she was just a silly old wives' tale used to scare naughty children out of playing near water, so she retired from boggarting and decided to reinvent herself as a star of cyberspace.   In her heyday she lived in dykes (the water filled type) and ditches, ponds and bogs, anywhere in fact that she could find stagnant water, preferably covered in green algae. By the time our interviewee, Ian Thorpe, was a boy civil engineering had destroyed most of Jenny's habitat. She was reduced to living in a disued canal. That was where Ian, the kind of child who could never stay away from places he was fobidden to play, first met her when he fell in the water one day.   When Jenny decided it was time to move from the diminishing labyrinth of dirty ditches and get into the labyrinth of the World Wide Web she naturally thought of her old swimming partner who by that time had retired from a career in Information Technology. Jenny became managing editor of Greenteeth Multi Media with Ian as CEO and director of technology. So far Greenteeth has online Boggart Blog,  a satirical, surreal, sardonic and at times just plain daft comedy blog and Little Nicky Machiavelli, a more political blog committed to persuading people to ask the difficult questions and keep asking until a sensible answer is given. Jenny and Ian assure PLT that the main Greenteeth Multi Media site will be online soon so long as Google do not move the goalposts again. Read the interview to learn what Greenteeth is all about.

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THE INTERVIEW

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Poetry L & T:	Well, Ian, this issue of PLT is on theme of Earth’s Revenge, actually global warming and climate change, quite appropriate for the time of year, as it turns out. Do you think that poetry as a protest form can really influence the course of events in human affairs, or are you of the view that Auden takes, that there are limits to what poetry can do, and it can't really influence the course of the human being making history, or I'll put it another way, what do you think the limits of poetry are?
Ian Thorpe:	If we want poetry to change the world first we must change poetry. There are limits to what poetry or any branch of the arts can do but popular literature ( and in that I include song lyrics) can raise awareness of social problems, if not directly then at least indirectly. I cite as an example the social revolution of the early 1960s. Poets such as Allen Ginsberg and the lyrics of blues songs and protest singers such as Woody Guthrie inspired songwriters like Bob Dylan, Tom Paxton, John Lennon & Paul McCartney and they raised awareness of civil rights issues. The anti war movement in the same period was propelled in the same way. There is a precedent in British history. Throughout the second half of the eighteenth century, the era known as The Age of Enlightenment or Age of Reason, until the great period of social reform after the Napoleonic wars, poets from Oliver Goldsmith through to Percy Shelly and John Keats were writing some very political stuff, often disguising it as Shelly did in Ozymandias, which, though it is in the form of a sonnet, I always think of as a protest against the greed and vanity of those who having grown rich through the Industrial Revolution were puffing themselves up through ostentatious displays of wealth and power as their workers sank deeper into poverty. In these cases poetry did not prompt any political reforms, free any slaves or re house any slum dwellers but it did help shape the public mood that demanded action on those issues. The limits now are that poetry, particularly contemporary poetry, is largely unread because it is seen as boring and self indulgent. But if the words of Bob Dylan can spark a change of mood, then why not us twenty first century poets. If we just try to write for a wide audience we can reach out to people rather than adking them to reach into us. Too many poets seem to have given up and just write for other poets and academics. I have always been a performance poet and believed in taking poetry to the audience. To do that, while rhyme is not absolutely necessary it's a great help in holding the audience; the poet on stage must engage the audience and so humour is very necessary. Also poems need to be performed not just read or more often mumbled, therefore the poets needs to have some knowledge of stage techniques such as voice projection, using variations of pitch pace and volume and  moving in ways that communicate confidence to the audience. For the printed page or text on screen we need to think about strong narrative structures, about avoidance of navel gazing – our job is to give the audience insight into their own lives not that of the poet. And finally one of the greatest traps poets fall into is the affectation of high mindedness. I know my saying this upsets people but we are entertainers, a branch of showbiz. Think about the earliest origins of poetry among the bards and storytellers of the Bronze Age and possibly even earlier. Poetry has lost its audience because it has forgotten its origins and grown away from people. Thus the most popular poets of our era are singer / songwriters. Would Bob Dylan's Times They Are A Changin' have won a place in this feature edition of PLT? I think it would.
Poetry L & T:	If Bob wants to send in a few here it’s up to him, but what do you think of surrealism in poetry, can it transport to higher levels of insight & spiritual vision. For example, Graves certainly held poetry to be multi layered but what of his remark "they are only concealing their unhappy lack of a secret" (Chapter 25: War in Heaven. The White Goddess)
Ian Thorpe:	I like surrealism so long as it is not contrived. Too often poets are very self consciously trying to be clever. The actor, writer and all round smart arse (but I love him) Stephen Fry commented on this when he spoke of poets who seem to think if anybody understands them, they have failed. Fry called it arse - dribble. The symbols of surrealism are readily identifiable to anyone well read on the subject and are as deeply rooted in the poetic myths of classical and North European literature as they are in the ideas of Jung. (Don't mention Freud, there is only one vowel difference between Freud and Fraud) The same ideas also crop up in Indian and Middle Eastern myths and in the spirituality of Native American peoples. How do we identify surrealism in poetry though? I would say Blake is often surreal and Shakespeare made many detours into the world of dreams and symbols. I'm not sure whether we should describe Coleridge as surreal or just stoned but Ancient Mariner is a bad acid trip, Kubla Kahn provides a much less scary altered consciousness experience. A lot of poetry is to some extent surreal. I always feel Tennyson's Lady of Shallot, because of its hypnotic rhythm and rhyme scheme evokes a dreamlike state. The problem with poetry though is because its traditional symbolism is the symbolism of surreal art poets feel they must go further and are drawn into confusing surrealism with randomness. We should be aware of the true meaning of surreal; it is not "unreal" but "on real,” a further layer of reality. As you know I'm a great admirer of The White Goddess but it is a difficult book from which to pluck a remark  thus robbing it of context. Graves' contention of course is that the only true theme of poetry (as opposed to mere verse) is the exaltation of the Goddess. He argues very convincingly as do many others including Dan Brown (unconvincingly) in The Da Vinci Code and Laurence Gardner in The Magdalene Legacy, a non fiction tracing goddess worship traditions in Christianity. I would criticise Gardner for the way he forgets to remind us in later chapters that when he traces a line of descent from David to Jesus to King Arthur he is referring to mythological rather than historic relationships. Graves never lets us forget we are dealing with myths. Anyway back to the question, yes I do think that what passes for surrealism in a lot of modern poetry is just a case of being wilfully obscure. I posted a fairly worthless little ditty at Authors Den recently, Gnostic Glory, which is based on Masonic / Enochian symbolism. Predictably I had a Christian critic slam me for using the hackneyed and meaningless imagery of Heavy Metal album covers. Well it wasn't THAT worthless, but it did show Christians do not understand the origins of their own faith. So in answer to your question we really end up with a question "what is surreal?" As I said you and I probably have a similar education so we left school with a good grasp of the significance of the myths, but as Graves suggests there are few modern poets who have any understanding of the myths on which our culture is founded. The result of that is originality has become prized over meaning.
Poetry L & T:	I mentioned Graves, though nowadays he's been largely sidelined imo, because of remark of his, that I see you sometimes like to quote namely "The monomaniacal ravings of modern poets" ...
Ian Thorpe:	Having read thousands of poems at Authors Den and other internet forums I do wholeheartedly approve of Graves' remark as much as I approve of Stephen Fry's "arse dribble." Its back to the liberal education again, I was taught to read a poem as a whole. A poem succeeds when the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, that is when subject matter, style, choice of words, rhythms or cadences and presentation all work together to affect the reader of listener more deeply than if the same message was simply presented as words on a page. For me a short, very simple poem, "He Wishes For The Cloths Of Heaven" by W.B. Yeats achieves this very well. It is a dream – like poem with a lot of repetition in its few lines but Yeats makes his images so clear and uses such potent images that even those who are not familiar with what is meant by "the cloth of heaven," are usually moved by the poem. Yeats does a similar thing in The Song of The Wandering Aengus. In this the trout caught by the fisherman turns into a "glimmering girl with apple blossom in her hair," whom he followed throughout the rest of his life. What these things and others in the poem such as the hazel wand symbolise may be lost on most people but does that matter? Readers will make their own interpretation, the fact is that the rhythms, the progression of the narrative from line to line, the unfolding of the story, a man chasing something unattainable (The Goddess?) draw us into the poem. It becomes much more than words on a page. In one thing I must defend modern poets. Few people are taught to read poetry now and so often those who advertise themselves as being able to show pupils how to write poetry labour under the misapprehension that poetry is a branch of psychotherapy. "Just describe your feelings," the creative writing teachers say when so much more is needed if we are to create true poetry. Not everybody who has struggled with depression, nor everyone who has ended up in prison after an unhappy childhood leading to a life of addiction and crime is a great writer. Simply writing a "personal statement" as I was often encouraged to do when the literary establishment briefly took an interest in me is not enough. My personal life is of no great interest but one or two of my observations of the wider world may have something to offer. Education then must take the blame for the dire state of poetry. I often wonder if there are now actually more people writing verse than reading it. But education, or rather the meddling in education of politicians, must carry the can for many things. (WARNING erotic content in links provided in this paragraph.) A good example of the best in stream–of-consciousness writing is Janet Caldwell (OK, I'm biased, she is the most recent manifestation of The Goddess in my life.) Janet’s poetry grew out of the need to come to terms with childhood abuse. Though often raw and undisciplined it grabs readers by the throat. I have said to Janet about some of her more visceral poems it is as if she emotionally disembowels herself and spreads the entrails on the page. They really do hit that hard. Readers can almost feel the lash of the leather belt whipping her eight year old legs.  The poem linked above, one of her more gentle efforts is about some fool of an Englishman who fell for her. His name escapes me at the moment (!) It is the poem of a dramatic realist. My Maid of Paradise though not a sequential poem, passes the sentiments the other way in the style of a lyricist. There is no comparison between Janet’s work and the the emotionally flatlining verse of so many of our colleagues at Author's Den. This is because where others try to dramatise in a touchy – feely way in order to present a retouched image of themselves Janet's tells it like it is or was. Having revealed that I deplore not simply self analysis presented as verse, but self analysis that tries to steer me towards a sympathetic view of the poet, it must be added that another aspect of monomania is the faux – originality that came up when we discussed surrealism. The use of impenetrable images and mangled syntax is really just saying to the reader "if you don't understand, it shows I, the poet, am clever and you, my audience are stupid. Which most people would understand is an insulting attitude. And in most cases that is all they need to know in order to stop reading. Poetry should be multi –layered, with the top layer working as a simple lyric or narrative. Andrew Marvell's "To His Coy Mistress" may be read as the lament of a man who has spent too long trying to get inside his girlfriend's knickers without success. Fine. Its entertaining, very well written and will satisfy many readers. Even at that level is it a excellent poem.  But search a little more deeply and it is clear there is more going on. The lady is clearly a goddess metaphor but why is she "by Indian Ganges side," while he complains on the banks of the very unexotic Humber in Northern England? Could it be a political poem too perhaps, about England having dishonourable designs on the wealth of India? It would have been written around the time The East India Company was formed. Or bearing in mind Marvell was a Protestant minister could it be a comment on the Puritanical determination to purge the church of "the heresies of Rome," namely the worship of Mary (more on that later). Its a world away from the me,me,me poetry of many modernists. As a simple rule for spotting monomaniacal ravings, its probably wise to avoid poets whose vocabulary would be halved if they were forbidden to use "I" and "me."
A picture of Ms. Jenny Greenteeth (above) and Setting for Ozymandias (far right)
Poetry L & T:	Many academics, who I meet, who happen to write poetry, tell me, as far as modern poetry is concerned, their starting out point is TS Eliot and that a good modern poet is only acceptable in their work, if it can be seen that they are a literary development of the schools that have hitherto preceded them. I mean to say that’s a standard, a norm that’s set or rather imposed by more or less establishment literature, if I can call it that.
Ian Thorpe:	Hmm Eliot, what can I say. My daughter used to enjoy having poems from Old Possum read to her. To be honest I have always found Eliot pretentious and contrived. One of those poets referred to above who is self consciously trying to be clever. Eliot was such an establishment figure it is no wonder the establishment love him. Really though he is the starting point (quite accidentally I'm sure) for the attitude that killed poetry as a popular form of literature, that of "if a lot of people like it, it must be crap," There has to be room for experiment and innovation of course, I just do not think Eliot was one of the best innovators. Probably what did for him in my eyes was hearing the story of how he claimed to have read Dante's Divine Comedy in medieval Italian without having first learned medieval Italian and found he gained more from that than he would have from reading it in a language he understood. Now Eliot would have learned Latin at school. I find even now and certainly when I first heard that story, reading modern Italian I get the gist of it and medieval Italian would have been a lot closer to the Latin of my schooldays. Since then I have never been a fan. Let's look at that academic attitude though. Having always been a populist and having remained true to my professed aim of trying to give poetry back to a wide audience I find the attitude of academics counter productive. Poetry should reflect the times in which it is written. Is a poet not modern if they write about climate change, terror campaigns or religious fundamentalism? We who have submitted work to this edition are modern poets whether we write in rhymed couplets or free verse. We are writing of the times in which we live, modern times. That apart, can academics be trusted to recognise innovation when they see it. A couple of years ago the winner of The Forward Prize for best single poem had the judges drooling over the fact he was "writing about quantum physics." The poem, by a Liverpool writer, was called something like "When Liverpool Disappeared" and using a theory that atoms can disappear and rematerialise the poet speculated that all the atoms that make Liverpool had disappeared at the same instant for a billionth of a second then came back and nobody noticed. It was a good poem, witty and well written, but quantum physics? That theory was disproved in the 1970s. It turned out the apparatus available earlier had forced scientists to observe atoms in too narrow a frame. So all the atoms were doing was moving out of the observers field of vision. I had a poem put forward that year, not my best of the year because the people publishing me said the judges were not interested in rhyme. But my poem was about cutting edge quantum physics. Dodgy quantum physics is fine but rhyme is beyond the limits of acceptability. Maybe not even getting close in that contest was the best thing for me, being noticed by the literary academic community so often seems to be the kiss of death. A problem with rhyme is many rhymers suffer from a hangover from nineteenth century neo – clasicism. They constrain themselves withing the A,B,B,A or A,B,A,B rhyme schemes. We should break free, wild adventures in rhyme are fun and we can write very effective, modern verse with a strong rhythm and an unsuaual rhyme scheme. We can also dig ourselves into some interesting holes as readers may see me doing in Peccavimus. My old colleague John Cooper Clarke is now getting some deserved recognition now, as does Benjamin Zephaniah and a few others whose writing is for the stage as much as for the page. Both the poets mentioned have a very cavalier attitude to technique but they are great entertainers. Even taking into account the progress that has been made by that pair and the growth of performance poetry, establishment figures have a knack of not understanding what is going on in the real world and thus making fools of themselves. Do you remember Seamus Heaney heaping praise on the rapper Eminem? Heaney was trying to jump on a bandwagon that had started rolling in the U.S.A. but did not really understand the doggerel of Eminem was violent and misogynistic trash created to appeal to disaffected adolescents through its ability to shock parents, just as the gangsta rap praised by literature professors across the pond was sensationalist and trashy, aimed at the easiest target. Listen to some of the rappers of a decade earlier, before the genre was grabbing headlines for the wrong reasons, Tone Loc, Cameo, De La Soul or Run DMC, and there is genuine poetry involved, working class poetry maybe, but genuine poetry. And it was truly innovative, as was our own Ian Dury. In my view the academic community are really afraid of genuine innovation, that is of new ideas. They are perfectly happy to praise the "innovation" of poetry written by a computer but should any living, breathing poet dare to boldly go where poetry has never gone before they are seized by an attack of Emperors-new-clothes-ism and dumbly follow the crowd. So to bring it back to Eliot, various people had been experimenting with free verse for decades before he was published and of course verse libre was well established in France. I think the academics see him as the starting point for modernism because he is safe. He is obscure enough to deter a wide audience and so the academic community may debate him at their leisure. My own attitude to Eliot is the same as I have to Milton. I know he is good but can't get into him. I could understand him if I tried but I sometimes read a few lines and think that I can't be arsed.
Poetry L & T:	Well this issue concerns the theme Earth's Revenge, or The Revenge of Gaia, after James Lovelocks’ recent book, which is Darwinist in it’s approach and regards the good planet to be better off, after it’s eliminated it’s unfortunate experiment the human species, though it’s no doubt doomed to end up as a speck of dust in a dying sun at the end of creation. Such are the views of science nowadays though religions seem glad enough to collude with them, so which is it to be the revenge or the return of the Goddess?
Ian Thorpe:	Both. It certainly looks as if we have passed the tipping point as far as climate change is concerned and so the poor of the third world will bear the brunt of Gaia's revenge. Also, so long as people don't get carried away with the idea that The Goddess is just a touchy feely version of the male God whose priests promised so much in return for unquestioning obedience and then failed to deliver in every instance, I think a huge number of people are going to start to think that nature, at once cruel and unthinking, kind and nurturing, is the highest manifestation of the divine. We are a very creative species but generally have been pretty rubbish when it comes to inventing our Gods. Or at least we have been for the last three thousand years; we've had some stinkers. Part of the trouble is people think "God" is all the same deity but the Arian Christians worshipped a much more Goddess – like figure than the angry, impotent God of the Protestant Reformation. And anyone familiar with the history of the English rural cult of Mary Gypsy will understand that until Henry VIII got into the religion business, beating L. Ron Hubbard by four hundred years, much of Britain, though ostensibly Roman Catholic was in fact pagan in its method of worship. Indeed it is from worship of Mary Gypsy, the Queen of the Mai, the Maid of the Woods, Maid Marian that the phrase Merrie England was derived. So the Goddess does not have far to come back, she never really went away. The danger is if Jehovah is relegated to his rightful place in the pantheon, too many people will substitute The Goddess as the chief magic fairy. In myth, just as The Ancient of Days said only two words, “I am” (from there the myth does not take much working out) The Goddess gives us one gift, life. It is then ours to do with as we wish, she is not going to clear up our mess of absolve us of our sins. The burden of living with ourselves and being responsible for what we do may be too much for a lot of people. I'm being playful of course. I do actually think there is a place for faith and communal worship in society. The trouble is the supporters of "old fashioned religion (mainly those in the U.S.A's Bible Belt) cannot understand that that their Old Time Religion is in fact very modern. Their version of Christianity simply did not exist until the Protestant reformation of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Even modern Judaism derives from that period when many Jewish sects, under threat of persecution and genocide, erased from their faith the Zoroastrian beliefs that challenged the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament. I told a couple of young Christian followers of my Boggart Blog  not long ago that if the Anglican church wanted to find a place in modern society it must root out the evangelical influences that are gaining strength and get back to being the kind of community support system it was in the Shropshire village where I passed my childhood. My family were never churchgoers but without the church events, usually organised in concert with the pub, there would have been no social life. The Women's Institute, also an organisation centred on the village church provided support of the old, the sick and people in need. OK, they were nosy parkers but they were always there when someone needed help. And yet I do not recall ever hearing people assuring each other that Jesus loved them or reminding each other that "God is great." My friends understandably described this as "traditional Anglican morality" but that is not quite right. It is traditional pagan morality, a relic of a society in which everybody shared what was available and everybody contributed what they could according to their abilities. From the pagans it was absorbed into the Culditch or Celtic Christianity that flourished in the north and west and in Scotland and Ireland. Faith ought to mean faith in each other, not a reliance on some weirdie beardie Gandalf lookalike to clear up our mess. Maybe the growing interest in Goddess myths and other pagan beliefs is a sign that people are starting to realise we are on our own, that all we can expect from the divine is a life and the price of that life is we owe to the next generation a future. Poetry is as good a way as I can think of to get that message across.
Poetry L & T:	I think, as you cited previously, that a good definition of a poem is that it is greater than the sum of its parts. That for me is the mystery of life we are created through, the oneness, which is always creating and transforming on every level of creation and which we can only participate in as infinitesimals, not as the centre of the universe. Nevertheless the oneness must be archetypal, so we must be archetypal, the question I ask is what is the nature of divine communion, is it the beatific vision, is it simply becoming. However, as I said at the outset of this talk, it’s quite appropriate that this month’s theme should be about Earth’s Revenge, because right now in UK, we seem not to be facing divine communion but divine retribution. As floods devastate here in UK and temperatures rise in the rest of Europe, this same abnormality only has to continue into August and there will be real trouble.
Ian Thorpe:	Funnily enough I was recently involved in a bust up with the “boy –scientists” of a forum called Bad Science (I’m not linking them, they don’t deserve it.) whose definition of “good science” hinges on repeating “correlation does not prove causation.” I think we are both familiar with that mode of argument Robin and it is easily shedded on Occam’s razor. But only yesterday I heard a “scientist” arguing that “we cannot prove global warming is responsible for the floods.” Well Socrates proved you can’t actually prove anything. I would have liked to argue at that scientist, “climate change is not responsible for the floods, water vapour condensing in the atmosphere is responsible for the floods but follow back the chain of events and you find that increased CO2 levels are responsible for a heating of the atmosphere, causing increased levels of evaporation from the ocean’s surface which brings more rain to the western shores of great landmasses.” “Scientists” in specialised fields should understand that in the real world people do not use clumsy technical expressions but that does not mean they do not understand what is going on. Even a nerdy computer specialist like myself will use a colloquialiam or analogy to make a point. Like Occam’s razor for example. Which is a long winded way of explaining that what we are experiencing is a very logical consequence of a course of action western nations embarked on two hundred years ago. Magic, or Divine Intervention are just easy ways of saying “that we do not yet understand,” so I would not argue with divine intervention but what I like about pagan ideas is they treat the divine as that which we do not yet understand or cannot control. And we certainly do not have a clue how to control the rains in Britain or droughts in Europe and extreme weather in North America. What the Goddess does give us however, as part of that bundle called “a life” is the ability to adapt. The sooner we start adapting the more of our civilisation will survive. Gaia is communicating with us, she is screaming “Enough.”
Poetry L & T:	Your latest site Jenny Greenteeth, invites all its readers to participate, there is now an article by yourself in our blog interactive files, which functions in a somewhat similar way. For the benefit of our readers who are not familiar with this innovative process, would you summarise your article and project in Jenny Greenteeth.
Ian Thorpe:	Grenteeth is a long way from being fully online yet but as Google keep moving the goalposts I have been delayed several times in getting a pilot up and running. The idea of Greenteeth is the antithesis of Web 2 which is based on randomising everything. I shot down the philosophy of Web2 when I was interviewed by Sara Russel for PLT a couple of years ago. I think many web entrepreneurs took too literally the scene in the film Forrest Gump where Tom Hanks says “life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.” That is only true if you are not smart enough to look at the menu pictures on the inside of the lid. Well Web2 has made the net like that. Claiming to have created a “new way of indexing information” Google have simply randomised information. Their advertising makes frequent use of the word “contextual,” but computers cannot do context. Follow a link and you never know what you are going to get. Seach Renaissance Art and you are likely to be taken to a porn site. Artificial intelligence is a hundred years away at least. More likely it will never be achievable. Intelligence resides in that we cannot yet understand. Greenteeth will aim to be a site for readers where an excellent and innovative navigation system will guide visitors to what they want. Writers will post by invitation only and as there are so many poets and so few readers out there, poets will be invited only if they can bring something else (fiction, factual articles, photo journalism, audio or video content) to the site. Exceptions will be made for people who are very good. One of the problems writers face is getting published. One of Greenteeth’s aims will be to help people in our community who self publish through Lulu or similar POD services get their work seen by enough prospective customers to generate decent sales. To do that we will employ my own network skills and those of a couple of friends, both former computer professonals. Many Poetry Life and Times regulars will be invited to contribute of course, but I would like to extend the benefit of the Greenteeth traffic catching method to your contributors by asking them to help get all poems in the back catalogue interlinked. This excercise, and a bit of involvement in ongoing promotion will ensure PLT and Greenteeth poets are among the most widely read contemporary poets in the English speaking world. Using my techniques which are very simple, I have attracted almost 100,000 hits so far this year at authorsden, with about half of those sticking around long enough to read a poem or article. My blogs are well past 100,000 but they are not poetry based. So as I said above, the audience is out there, we just have to find the right way to communicate with them. To summarise the Greenteeth philosophy; quality content, great navigation, professional management. Oh and the magic of Jenny Greenteeth, a naughty boggart or water spirit who will not let people go once they have fallen into her labyrinth. Or put less magically, an effective linking strategy.
Poetry L & T:	Thanks etc.,
Ian Thorpe:	And thank you Robin for giving me the chance to reach your readers. Now its goobye from me and farewell from Jenny.